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[Music]

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greetings friends and fellow terrestrial

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beings and welcome to ask an

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astrobiologists the show that celebrates

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the science and the scientists involved

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in our quest to understand the nature of

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life in the cosmos we are brought to you

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by Sagan net org

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and the NASA Astrobiology program and I

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am your host Graham the Cosmo biologist

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loud hi everyone we have a really

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incredible guest for you this month and

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I have to say like I've kind of been

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like geeking out in the background here

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thinking about having him on I've been

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following his work for a very long time

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and we have a lot of cool stuff to talk

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about about Europa and working at JPL

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just so much cool science and a really

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awesome book that just came out but

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before we get to that and I introduce

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our guests we have some of our usual

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awesome things that we do with our show

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like for instance our field site

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challenge as many of our audience

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members know each month before the

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episode airs the day before we launched

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on Twitter a challenge for you to figure

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out some ester biologically relevant

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field site here on our earth and this is

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the picture from this month we're

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putting up right now for you to see this

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is an image of the Sully hydrothermal

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vent in the main endeavour event field

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off the Juan de Fuca Ridge this bet is

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some 2,200 meters underwater a region

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where fluids circulating into the crust

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come back out at hundreds of degrees

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Celsius bringing out this black material

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in this hydrothermal vent this black

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smoker chimney around the chimney is an

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oasis of life including those long two

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burns the rift II at the Kip Tala these

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sites are so important for us as

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astrobiologists after that they're

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discovered the 1970s we realized that

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these hydrothermal vents could be sites

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not just for life to thrive in Oasis and

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ocean floors on earth and beyond the

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potential sites for the origins of life

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as well and so they've been crucial now

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to our understanding of how life

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functions and so our winner this month

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of all the wonderful correct answers we

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got on Twitter about the location of

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this site is

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in Cairo I actually know Tristan Tristan

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is a graduate student at the University

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of Colorado he's also a member of the

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research coordination network called

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n-fold or the network for life detection

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so congratulations Tristan on winning

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and thank you to all of you who competed

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this month in every single month in our

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field site challenge we also do a

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monthly ambassador of the month trying

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to celebrate those of you who go out of

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your way to give us some love in the

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digital realm through social media on

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Twitter and Facebook LinkedIn reddit

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Instagram and all the other awesome

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places you can share ask an

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astrobiologist we actually had so many

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people this month sharing us that we

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wanted to name four of you specifically

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and say thank you for your hard work

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those for our Emily Felder at sub-atomic

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Emily on Twitter Anna root mohanty at

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stray ologist steena at steena - five

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zero six two three five three and

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Dallara

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coke Arslan at Dobie delle on twitter

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thanks thank you to the four of you we

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really appreciate all that you do for

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our show now without any further ado I

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get to introduce this month's guest dr.

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Kevin hand of a NASA Jet Propulsion

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Laboratory dr. Kevin Han thank you so

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much for joining us hey thanks Graham

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thanks Mike I'm so excited to have you

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on the show like I said I've been

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following your work for a long time and

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I know a lot about since my own graduate

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research was in the realm of

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understanding analogues for Europa and

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Enceladus and other worlds but for our

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audience you know I'd really like to get

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to you know who you are as a scientist

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what you do you work at NASA's Jet

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Propulsion Laboratory you're involved in

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upcoming research on developing a lander

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for Europa but can you give us just a

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little background about your career in

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science and what led you to where you

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are right now so I was born and raised

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in a pretty small town in southwestern

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Vermont's town called Manchester Vermont

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and I attribute my fascination my

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obsession my curiosity with the search

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for life beyond Earth to the the clear

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night skies of Vermont and having

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parents and then living in a community

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where all of us kids were just kind of

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kicked out at sunrise and we had to come

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back in time for dinner and so my friend

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my siblings that I and my friends and I

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we all just kind of lived in the woods

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and played in mud puddles it was the

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best analogy for my childhood is is

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beyond a nurturing community of friends

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and family who just kind of let us all

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room I had a wonderful teacher in

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seventh and eighth grade a science

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teacher was adamant about just getting

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us out and having us explore and build

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things his name was Mike sefirot and he

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he got us out to these old cow pastures

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in Vermont and these old rivers where

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there had been water wheels and sawmills

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that were powered by simple machines and

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that really get a sense for what early

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technology in colonial America was was

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like and so that kind of captivated my

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imagination with the basic physics of

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the world around me and then combine

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that with the night sky above and a

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dance and Carl Sagan books and building

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a lot of rockets yeah it's a I just feel

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very fortunate that I grew up in a in an

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well there's an interesting kind of

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compare and contrast some people have a

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childhood where they have academic

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parents and they get like streamline

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on this thing that thing I didn't have

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that and obviously having parents who

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know what a PhD is or who are into

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academia can get you on that path very

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quickly but I've worried that sometimes

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those folks are not necessarily choosing

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their their path and so I feel very

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fortunate that I kind of organically

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came to love the universe around me and

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and that did result in some challenges

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in terms of how the heck do I make a

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career out of this and we can get into

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some of that but but the seeds were

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planted by just the the sort of fertile

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soil of Vermont so to speak that's

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awesome

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and to say you know as a parent myself

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with a young child you know I've been

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thinking a lot about ways to to be

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supportive but also not to like you know

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to shoehorn him into like some path that

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I want for him and you know to give him

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that chance so it's it's kind of cool to

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hear about that you know you have an

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environment that nurtures and challenges

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you but doesn't you know direct you

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necessarily where to go so so tell us

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that about about your career kind of

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your adventure going into into college

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and and what you studied and how it kind

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of brought you to be the scientist that

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you are well old is your child he's 10

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months old right now I was gonna

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recommend mud puddles and cardboard

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boxes so yeah I definitely made a lot of

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sports and spaceships out of

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refrigerator boxes and anything that

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then my siblings and I could crawl into

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yeah so the with regard to how I got

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from from there to to where I am now

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there's many many steps that probably

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take a lot a lot longer than we have

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today but originally I wanted to go to

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Cornell and study under a Carl Sagan and

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that's I got into Cornell and and I

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really didn't have much guidance as far

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as how to become a scientist a lot of

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in public schools in Vermont or just

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kind of well go to UVM which is a great

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school but there wasn't too much

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guidance about I want to become a

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was sort of morally opposed to the cost

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of college back then which this is this

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is the early 90s and obviously this has

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become a huge issue in the modern era

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but during junior high and high school I

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will actually goes back even further

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than that but as a young child I got

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captivated also by magic and and some of

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the the juggling and riding unicycles

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and all that stuff and I think magic and

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magic tricks can definitely get your

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your sort of childhood OCD going on if

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you've got a curious mind that's

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obsessed with puzzles and figuring

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things out and then you see a magic

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trick that just does not make sense with

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the universe around you you can obsess

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over those things so I definitely got

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hooked on magic as a young kid and then

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I ended up starting a a small business

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where I went around with a buddy of mine

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and we did birthday parties and senior

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living homes and VFW holiday parties and

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things like that I bought my first car

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with money I made from the magic shows

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and everything so there was actually a

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time period where I looked at going to a

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circus college and I had actually gone

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to magic camp and so there was a there's

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a whole kind of alternate universe where

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I where I pursued all of that but then I

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got into Cornell and I ended up having

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some some scholarships and some

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financial aid that made college possible

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and when I went out to Cornell and

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visited I talked with a physics

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professor there and he said there's no

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way you're ever gonna meet Carl there's

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no way you're ever going to get a chance

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to work with him and so I kind of I left

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Cornell and then was a bit sad and my

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English teacher had advised that I look

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at Dartmouth College and I went to

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Dartmouth I didn't like it on my first

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trip because I did the sort of standard

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tour and I didn't like a bunch of the

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sort of Greek life aspect of all that

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but then I went back up there on my own

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and met a bunch of the mountaineering

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club and Outing Club folks and I had a

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great talk with a physics professor

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there who was not at all condescending

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he entertained all my naive questions

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about general relativity and quantum

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mechanics and all that so I ended up

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going to Dartmouth and studied physics

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and psychology and astronomy there and

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then from there there were a number of

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internships and then the hiccups here

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and there that we can get into if you

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like but that's sort of how I went from

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a child to then being actually engaged

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in a formal academic system that that

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would eventually lead to me being at JPL

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that's awesome and it's hard to imagine

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that you know this universe where Kevin

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Ham is you know the master of

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legerdemain and a magician it's kind of

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cool though I like hearing that that

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story in your background you know that

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there is that this interest in magic and

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in developing that kind of as a career

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and also the enchantment that comes with

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that and kind of the all in wonder of

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this world of magic that you know kind

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of draws a lot of people to it we also

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have that a lot in astrobiology and the

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00:13:20,810 --> 00:13:18,750
sciences well so you know you work

273
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currently at JPL which is like the mecca

274
00:13:25,010 --> 00:13:23,760
of space exploration can you just give

275
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our audience like an idea of you know

276
00:13:28,340 --> 00:13:26,280
what a general day I mean we're in

277
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pandemic right now obviously but but

278
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what is the love life of a JPL

279
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scientists like well obviously I can

280
00:13:42,780 --> 00:13:37,470
really only for myself buddy in general

281
00:13:49,490 --> 00:13:42,790
the scientists at JPL we have to publish

282
00:13:53,250 --> 00:13:49,500
and we kind of partition our our

283
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workload into fundamental research and

284
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writing proposals to support that

285
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fundamental research and then doing

286
00:14:10,620 --> 00:14:07,170
formulate or implement missions in other

287
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words help get missions approved or help

288
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get missions built or some combination

289
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therein in my case I run the ocean

290
00:14:21,450 --> 00:14:19,810
worlds lab at JPL and we've got a great

291
00:14:23,310 --> 00:14:21,460
team in that lab and we do these

292
00:14:25,830 --> 00:14:23,320
experiments that simulate Europa's

293
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:25,840
surface and subsurface Enceladus is

294
00:14:32,610 --> 00:14:27,730
surface and subsurface and a little bit

295
00:14:36,900 --> 00:14:32,620
of Titan work in there earth ice and

296
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:36,910
ocean work in our lab and so part of my

297
00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:39,850
time is spent on land and writing up

298
00:14:46,140 --> 00:14:44,320
those results part of my time it's spent

299
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right now on Mars 2020

300
00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:49,870
I'm helping as a member of the the

301
00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:53,710
Sherlock instrument team and then the

302
00:15:00,030 --> 00:14:57,610
other major component of my time is

303
00:15:04,020 --> 00:15:00,040
trying to get the Europa Lander mission

304
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:04,030
concept moving forward we passed our

305
00:15:10,980 --> 00:15:06,850
Delta MCR our mission concept review

306
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:10,990
which is a key to go to phase a the the

307
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:13,690
kind of official greenlight permission

308
00:15:19,020 --> 00:15:17,050
to move forward but do a number of

309
00:15:22,470 --> 00:15:19,030
different factors were kind of in a

310
00:15:25,770 --> 00:15:22,480
parking orbit if you will and that

311
00:15:28,410 --> 00:15:25,780
mission will not move forward I'm

312
00:15:31,490 --> 00:15:28,420
certain it won't move into phase a

313
00:15:34,740 --> 00:15:31,500
before the next Ocado survey is

314
00:15:36,540 --> 00:15:34,750
completed and distributed and so to that

315
00:15:38,550 --> 00:15:36,550
and we need the astrobiology community

316
00:15:41,730 --> 00:15:38,560
out there to get involved with the de

317
00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:41,740
kado survey and to help be a strong

318
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:45,490
voice for our priorities in the next

319
00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:48,010
decade of exploration and hopefully

320
00:15:52,290 --> 00:15:49,450
getting things like a lander to the

321
00:15:54,660 --> 00:15:52,300
surface of Europa admission out to study

322
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:54,670
the plumes of Enceladus and all those

323
00:16:00,990 --> 00:15:55,930
things so it's been

324
00:16:05,820 --> 00:16:01,000
a lot of time on that kind of mission

325
00:16:07,889 --> 00:16:05,830
development work and the the formulation

326
00:16:09,870 --> 00:16:07,899
and strategy side and then I'm a Kauai

327
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:09,880
on Europa clipper and a Kauai on the

328
00:16:14,730 --> 00:16:12,130
Dragonfly mission and I do a fair amount

329
00:16:19,829 --> 00:16:14,740
of field work so it's uh it's a lot to

330
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:19,839
juggle but try and keep all the balls in

331
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:21,490
the air yeah so it sounds like a very

332
00:16:25,410 --> 00:16:23,410
busy life but also really exciting to be

333
00:16:26,519 --> 00:16:25,420
involved and all of these incredible

334
00:16:27,510 --> 00:16:26,529
missions and all these are the cool

335
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:27,520
things that could be happening in the

336
00:16:31,889 --> 00:16:29,770
near future for our audience who aren't

337
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:31,899
aware the decatur survey which has

338
00:16:34,590 --> 00:16:33,490
always been about planetary science now

339
00:16:37,350 --> 00:16:34,600
it's the de cable survey of planetary

340
00:16:39,870 --> 00:16:37,360
science and astrobiology which is pretty

341
00:16:40,949 --> 00:16:39,880
incredible this is a way for the

342
00:16:43,949 --> 00:16:40,959
community to come together as

343
00:16:46,829 --> 00:16:43,959
researchers and basically say within one

344
00:16:48,510 --> 00:16:46,839
large document kind of you know this is

345
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:48,520
the vision for the next ten years of our

346
00:16:52,949 --> 00:16:51,010
exploration in this realm so it'd be

347
00:16:54,690 --> 00:16:52,959
very cool if we can get you know the rep

348
00:16:56,180 --> 00:16:54,700
a lander concept in there and you know

349
00:16:58,199 --> 00:16:56,190
they're getting a mission to Enceladus

350
00:16:59,370 --> 00:16:58,209
before we talk more about all these

351
00:17:01,769 --> 00:16:59,380
missions specifically I do want to

352
00:17:02,699 --> 00:17:01,779
mention your book which I had seen you

353
00:17:03,930 --> 00:17:02,709
know you mentioned on Twitter it was

354
00:17:05,220 --> 00:17:03,940
being released and that's why I wanted

355
00:17:07,710 --> 00:17:05,230
to bring you on the show what it was to

356
00:17:09,929 --> 00:17:07,720
talk about this that is alien oceans for

357
00:17:12,059 --> 00:17:09,939
our audience you can pick this book up

358
00:17:13,380 --> 00:17:12,069
now unfortunately it's hard to pandemic

359
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:13,390
to go to bookstores and find it but it

360
00:17:18,510 --> 00:17:15,490
is available online

361
00:17:23,130 --> 00:17:18,520
I've really enjoyed thus far and one

362
00:17:25,949 --> 00:17:23,140
place during grad to join a trip as

363
00:17:27,990 --> 00:17:25,959
Cameron to go down into a submersible in

364
00:17:30,180 --> 00:17:28,000
the ocean not just once but I think nine

365
00:17:33,630 --> 00:17:30,190
times you mentioned you had a chance to

366
00:17:35,669 --> 00:17:33,640
go down what was that like for you that

367
00:17:37,950 --> 00:17:35,679
experience of becoming one of the very

368
00:17:42,419 --> 00:17:37,960
few humans who's ever gone down to the

369
00:17:45,870 --> 00:17:42,429
bottom of the ocean in a submersible it

370
00:17:49,370 --> 00:17:45,880
was remarkable and then and

371
00:17:51,390 --> 00:17:49,380
mind-altering and and and all of those

372
00:17:53,940 --> 00:17:51,400
aspects I'll get into the actual

373
00:17:55,590 --> 00:17:53,950
experience in in a second but as I as I

374
00:17:58,560 --> 00:17:55,600
described in the book it was not an

375
00:18:01,020 --> 00:17:58,570
obvious choice for me at the time I was

376
00:18:05,339 --> 00:18:01,030
out at the geobiology summer school on

377
00:18:10,209 --> 00:18:08,649
this was a TV thing a Hollywood thing or

378
00:18:12,669 --> 00:18:10,219
whatever and I had done a little bit of

379
00:18:14,259 --> 00:18:12,679
work here and there with that and for

380
00:18:20,799 --> 00:18:14,269
the most part kind of saw that as a

381
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:20,809
distraction but my close friend George

382
00:18:26,649 --> 00:18:23,450
Whitesides was at some other it was a

383
00:18:30,579 --> 00:18:26,659
calm space company at the time he called

384
00:18:33,159 --> 00:18:30,589
me up and said James Cameron is looking

385
00:18:35,919 --> 00:18:33,169
at me of connecting hydrothermal vents

386
00:18:39,449 --> 00:18:35,929
to Europa and he's looking for young

387
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:39,459
scientists to talk about that connection

388
00:18:46,580 --> 00:18:42,210
well

389
00:18:47,900 --> 00:18:46,590
interesting then I went and they kind of

390
00:18:51,230 --> 00:18:47,910
interviewed me and stuff and there we

391
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:51,240
went well and I was you know because I

392
00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:53,730
had this great thing at the geobiology

393
00:19:03,460 --> 00:18:57,810
summer school and I asked Ken Nealson

394
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:03,470
who many of you know of Ken Ken's at USC

395
00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:06,210
and he's just an incredible store in the

396
00:19:09,860 --> 00:19:08,160
bobbin can't you tonight should I do

397
00:19:13,970 --> 00:19:09,870
this thing is this a distraction is it

398
00:19:17,540 --> 00:19:13,980
was a you know I'm in the PhD this is

399
00:19:20,570 --> 00:19:17,550
gonna be some time off and yeah what his

400
00:19:22,010 --> 00:19:20,580
hand on my hand just said Kevin if

401
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:22,020
there's any chance in hell you get to go

402
00:19:27,620 --> 00:19:23,930
to the bottom the ocean damnit take it

403
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:27,630
and that was really really good advice

404
00:19:34,460 --> 00:19:32,490
and so we I got to go to the bottom nine

405
00:19:38,780 --> 00:19:34,470
times and see hydrothermal vents up

406
00:19:41,150 --> 00:19:38,790
close to see those bizarre and beautiful

407
00:19:47,570 --> 00:19:41,160
ecosystems and all right in front of my

408
00:19:49,460 --> 00:19:47,580
eyes and it's uh it was just absolutely

409
00:19:53,270 --> 00:19:49,470
stunning and and it's it's sort of

410
00:19:55,820 --> 00:19:53,280
holding a philosophy of robots versus

411
00:19:57,620 --> 00:19:55,830
human exploration and having grown up in

412
00:19:59,270 --> 00:19:57,630
the mountains and and done a lot of

413
00:20:02,690 --> 00:19:59,280
climbing and mountaineering and and

414
00:20:05,450 --> 00:20:02,700
getting on to the mountains there were

415
00:20:08,210 --> 00:20:05,460
interesting parallels with being down at

416
00:20:11,150 --> 00:20:08,220
the bottom of the ocean and that sense

417
00:20:12,740 --> 00:20:11,160
of all I know obviously kind of leaves

418
00:20:15,230 --> 00:20:12,750
me speechless but I described it in the

419
00:20:16,700 --> 00:20:15,240
book and I wouldn't trade that

420
00:20:18,890 --> 00:20:16,710
experience for anything in the world

421
00:20:20,620 --> 00:20:18,900
that's there for kind of reminds me of

422
00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:20,630
you know that

423
00:20:24,790 --> 00:20:22,370
in our Frank white point his term in

424
00:20:27,070 --> 00:20:24,800
1987 that you know less than six hundred

425
00:20:28,420 --> 00:20:27,080
humans so far gone into space and you

426
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:28,430
passed the Karman line in the orbit and

427
00:20:32,530 --> 00:20:30,410
and looked down at our earth from above

428
00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:32,540
but in some ways you had a very similar

429
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:34,370
experience by going down to the bottom

430
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:36,290
of the ocean in a submersible which you

431
00:20:39,610 --> 00:20:38,090
know also very few humans have done and

432
00:20:41,710 --> 00:20:39,620
you know it's it's a very you know a

433
00:20:43,060 --> 00:20:41,720
place we humans don't you know we didn't

434
00:20:45,010 --> 00:20:43,070
evolve to live in such kind of

435
00:20:46,330 --> 00:20:45,020
environments and so and it's kind of

436
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:46,340
staggering to think about you know the

437
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:48,410
fact that we can send people to those

438
00:20:51,940 --> 00:20:49,370
places to explore

439
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:51,950
yeah and in the same way that the

440
00:20:56,500 --> 00:20:53,810
overview effect which is up on my

441
00:20:59,380 --> 00:20:56,510
bookshelf here somewhere it's a an old

442
00:21:03,460 --> 00:20:59,390
classic in the same way that's the

443
00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:03,470
overview effect is conceived of as a way

444
00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:06,110
to potentially transform our

445
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:08,510
understanding of our place on planet

446
00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:11,690
Earth and in the in the cosmos in a way

447
00:21:18,190 --> 00:21:13,370
to maybe catalyze some altruistic

448
00:21:23,380 --> 00:21:18,200
behavior to to get us to be to see a

449
00:21:27,550 --> 00:21:23,390
world without borders that kind of

450
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:27,560
immersive experience I think connects

451
00:21:31,180 --> 00:21:30,050
back to the deep ocean exploration and

452
00:21:32,770 --> 00:21:31,190
it seems like right now you know with

453
00:21:34,690 --> 00:21:32,780
the pandemic as well it's a good time

454
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:34,700
for us to to have people who've had

455
00:21:38,050 --> 00:21:36,290
those experiences sharing that you know

456
00:21:39,430 --> 00:21:38,060
and so with you sharing it through your

457
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:39,440
book you know other people have had

458
00:21:43,330 --> 00:21:40,970
these awesome experiences sharing it now

459
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:43,340
with others around the globe now they're

460
00:21:46,210 --> 00:21:44,810
all connecting more online and it's a

461
00:21:48,010 --> 00:21:46,220
chance for all of us to get into this

462
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:48,020
conversation about our responsibilities

463
00:21:53,050 --> 00:21:49,370
towards our planet

464
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:53,060
yes it's very cool so I mean I I love

465
00:21:57,070 --> 00:21:54,890
Europa it's it's my favorite of the icy

466
00:21:58,570 --> 00:21:57,080
worlds of our solar system you do a

467
00:22:02,080 --> 00:21:58,580
really good job in the book kind of

468
00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:02,090
explaining this slow methodical process

469
00:22:07,300 --> 00:22:04,370
that we went through to discover that

470
00:22:10,180 --> 00:22:07,310
Europa has an ocean down below a very

471
00:22:12,730 --> 00:22:10,190
deep ocean down below and then could

472
00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:12,740
even have some life inside of it I don't

473
00:22:15,010 --> 00:22:13,760
want to give away too much from inside

474
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:15,020
the book but I do love that there's a

475
00:22:17,980 --> 00:22:16,250
chapter in the book where you kind of

476
00:22:20,740 --> 00:22:17,990
start talking about some of the

477
00:22:24,130 --> 00:22:20,750
potential biology that could occur in

478
00:22:26,050 --> 00:22:24,140
Europa's ocean I recall Carol Cleland

479
00:22:27,730 --> 00:22:26,060
the philosopher she loves always joke

480
00:22:28,630 --> 00:22:27,740
that there might be whales inside of

481
00:22:30,340 --> 00:22:28,640
Europa

482
00:22:34,060 --> 00:22:30,350
and so I wonder if you could like give

483
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:34,070
us a vision of your own if you could if

484
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:35,690
there is a biosphere in your rope but

485
00:22:41,410 --> 00:22:37,210
what does that look like to you

486
00:22:45,310 --> 00:22:41,420
yeah well as you know I love this this

487
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:45,320
check am i one of the most fun chapters

488
00:22:53,530 --> 00:22:47,450
for me to write was this chapter called

489
00:22:58,440 --> 00:22:53,540
the octopus in the hammer and it down

490
00:23:04,320 --> 00:22:58,450
boy hey so I wrote this book in part for

491
00:23:09,220 --> 00:23:04,330
the 15 to 25 year old version of me that

492
00:23:11,380 --> 00:23:09,230
wanted some detail wanted some equations

493
00:23:15,790 --> 00:23:11,390
wanted some you know we wanted to be

494
00:23:18,060 --> 00:23:15,800
challenged with really hard science but

495
00:23:22,510 --> 00:23:18,070
I also wanted the book to have some

496
00:23:24,340 --> 00:23:22,520
speculative fun and that's where that

497
00:23:27,340 --> 00:23:24,350
chapter really comes into play and this

498
00:23:31,690 --> 00:23:27,350
actually links back to a question that

499
00:23:33,540 --> 00:23:31,700
that's one way as somebody in your

500
00:23:37,930 --> 00:23:33,550
audience asked I'm forgetting his name

501
00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:37,940
about why I studied psychology and I

502
00:23:42,460 --> 00:23:40,130
studied psychology in college in part

503
00:23:48,669 --> 00:23:42,470
because I was fascinated with with human

504
00:23:54,490 --> 00:23:48,679
consciousness and how we even understand

505
00:23:58,330 --> 00:23:54,500
our place in the universe and also with

506
00:24:00,520 --> 00:23:58,340
what it would mean for organisms on

507
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:00,530
distant planets or distant moons to

508
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:03,490
evolve their sensory modalities

509
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:05,690
everything that we know and love and

510
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:08,450
understand about our universe comes

511
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:12,530
through our five senses yet of course

512
00:24:23,460 --> 00:24:19,970
whales dolphins bees a various kinds of

513
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:23,470
fish have senses that we don't have and

514
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:26,330
if they were to evolve the consciousness

515
00:24:31,450 --> 00:24:29,570
how would those different sensory

516
00:24:33,730 --> 00:24:31,460
modalities affect their perception of

517
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:33,740
the universe or on them so I go into

518
00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:39,210
some detail on that in that chapter and

519
00:24:46,820 --> 00:24:44,130
within Europa sorry I'm jumping around

520
00:24:48,889 --> 00:24:46,830
here a little bit died within Europa

521
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:48,899
there is the potential that we could

522
00:24:57,409 --> 00:24:54,330
have larger organisms and so the the

523
00:25:00,769 --> 00:24:57,419
radiation bombardment of Europa surface

524
00:25:03,950 --> 00:25:00,779
generates oxygen when we know that solid

525
00:25:07,220 --> 00:25:03,960
phase oxygen exists in Europa's ice and

526
00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:07,230
if that oxygen is cycled into the ocean

527
00:25:14,180 --> 00:25:11,370
below and there is the possibility that

528
00:25:17,260 --> 00:25:14,190
we could know that your robos ocean

529
00:25:19,610 --> 00:25:17,270
could support multicellular life

530
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:19,620
obviously for the most part when we talk

531
00:25:22,220 --> 00:25:20,610
about the search for life elsewhere

532
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:22,230
we're talking about the search for even

533
00:25:27,799 --> 00:25:26,010
the tiniest of microbe but Europa's got

534
00:25:30,950 --> 00:25:27,809
this pretty unique situation where the

535
00:25:36,529 --> 00:25:30,960
radiation chemistry on the surface could

536
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:36,539
play a role in you very yeah an ocean

537
00:25:48,860 --> 00:25:44,779
amount of that could then motivates a

538
00:25:50,630 --> 00:25:48,870
sort of Cambrian explosion or Europa's

539
00:25:53,570 --> 00:25:50,640
version of a Cambrian explosion which

540
00:25:57,139 --> 00:25:53,580
could potentially lead to organisms like

541
00:25:58,880 --> 00:25:57,149
octopi or its equator cuttlefish as much

542
00:26:00,409 --> 00:25:58,890
as I love whales keep in mind of course

543
00:26:03,980 --> 00:26:00,419
that whales have to come on land and

544
00:26:07,820 --> 00:26:03,990
back same with dolphins so listen thank

545
00:26:10,519 --> 00:26:07,830
you octopi or some your open version of

546
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:10,529
occupy within Europa or for that matter

547
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:14,610
some distant version of Europa that's

548
00:26:19,730 --> 00:26:17,490
orbiting some other star you know the

549
00:26:22,779 --> 00:26:19,740
the the nice thing about Europa's is

550
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:22,789
that they it might be ubiquitous in our

551
00:26:28,730 --> 00:26:26,130
galaxy and our universe so somewhere

552
00:26:33,799 --> 00:26:28,740
there probably well I shouldn't say

553
00:26:36,909 --> 00:26:33,809
probably but I would predict that there

554
00:26:40,610 --> 00:26:36,919
is multicellular life within some

555
00:26:45,169 --> 00:26:40,620
ice-covered ocean world out there in our

556
00:26:49,350 --> 00:26:45,179
galaxy then you can ask would it develop

557
00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:49,360
the tool using capability that that

558
00:26:55,860 --> 00:26:53,200
early hominids did would it develop a

559
00:27:00,480 --> 00:26:55,870
consciousness and a philosophy or

560
00:27:04,410 --> 00:27:00,490
religion akin to what our own pathway

561
00:27:09,450 --> 00:27:04,420
from Australopithecus as yoga and then

562
00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:09,460
one of my favorite thoughts is much of

563
00:27:17,130 --> 00:27:15,130
our philosophy has been driven by our

564
00:27:21,110 --> 00:27:17,140
capacity to look up and see the night

565
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:21,120
sky the the moon and the stars the Sun

566
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:24,730
to explore we've been able to look over

567
00:27:30,390 --> 00:27:27,730
the horizon watch the Sun dip over the

568
00:27:32,310 --> 00:27:30,400
horizon watch it rise again same with

569
00:27:36,030 --> 00:27:32,320
the moon we've been able to see the

570
00:27:38,250 --> 00:27:36,040
Stars circle around us and then realize

571
00:27:41,850 --> 00:27:38,260
we are our circle around circling around

572
00:27:44,430 --> 00:27:41,860
a star if you're an intelligent octopus

573
00:27:46,350 --> 00:27:44,440
beneath an ice shell on Europa

574
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:46,360
you're not looking up and seeing the

575
00:27:54,090 --> 00:27:51,250
Stars you are hearing the creaks and

576
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:54,100
cracks of that ice shell echoing

577
00:27:59,280 --> 00:27:56,530
throughout your ocean those creaks and

578
00:28:01,919 --> 00:27:59,290
cracks are connected to the tides that

579
00:28:03,990 --> 00:28:01,929
results from this moon orbiting a giant

580
00:28:07,580 --> 00:28:04,000
world like like Jupiter in the case of

581
00:28:11,310 --> 00:28:07,590
Europa and so I want to just think about

582
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:11,320
how consciousness and philosophy and

583
00:28:17,610 --> 00:28:13,570
potentially religion and a sense of

584
00:28:19,289 --> 00:28:17,620
place would develop in a an intelligent

585
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:19,299
creature within an ice-covered ocean

586
00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:22,690
that has no access to the stars above so

587
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:24,370
that's part of what I get into in that

588
00:28:28,710 --> 00:28:27,250
chapter and again that's that was a fun

589
00:28:30,990 --> 00:28:28,720
chapter for me to write because I got to

590
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:31,000
kind of speculate I don't know a lot of

591
00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:35,650
these fun but deep ideas well I'll tell

592
00:28:39,870 --> 00:28:37,510
you for for a reader it's also very fun

593
00:28:41,730 --> 00:28:39,880
as well my mind was just envisioning you

594
00:28:43,950 --> 00:28:41,740
know this crackling of an ice shell and

595
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:43,960
what that would do for for this you know

596
00:28:46,740 --> 00:28:45,370
these beings if they were creating their

597
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:46,750
own mythology's their own culture their

598
00:28:50,460 --> 00:28:48,490
own understanding them that themselves

599
00:28:52,409 --> 00:28:50,470
in a cosmos they can't you know they

600
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:52,419
can't perceive because it's you know

601
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:54,850
through ten kilometers or more of ice

602
00:28:58,680 --> 00:28:56,770
so that was really cool for me one thing

603
00:29:00,030 --> 00:28:58,690
for our audience we are going to open up

604
00:29:02,220 --> 00:29:00,040
the audience questions here really soon

605
00:29:03,930 --> 00:29:02,230
for those watching second net on

606
00:29:05,190 --> 00:29:03,940
Facebook you can just drop your

607
00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:05,200
questions into the chat and we'll pick

608
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:06,880
them up now you can also ask questions

609
00:29:11,940 --> 00:29:09,610
using hashtag ask Astro bio on Twitter

610
00:29:14,250 --> 00:29:11,950
as usual and we'll open it up here very

611
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:14,260
soon I have one more question of my own

612
00:29:19,470 --> 00:29:16,090
and we'll start asking audience

613
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:19,480
questions so Kevin for one thing I

614
00:29:23,370 --> 00:29:21,370
really don't like myself right now in

615
00:29:27,150 --> 00:29:23,380
the realm of astrobiology is this use of

616
00:29:29,010 --> 00:29:27,160
the term habitable zone because it seems

617
00:29:30,630 --> 00:29:29,020
presumptive you know that it seems like

618
00:29:32,570 --> 00:29:30,640
we're telling you know the people around

619
00:29:35,190 --> 00:29:32,580
the world that we're only going to find

620
00:29:38,250 --> 00:29:35,200
habitation by alien life inside of this

621
00:29:39,870 --> 00:29:38,260
zone around a star but you you know you

622
00:29:42,300 --> 00:29:39,880
present very compelling arguments in

623
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:42,310
your book for potential for life in icy

624
00:29:46,470 --> 00:29:43,570
worlds and ocean worlds in our solar

625
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:46,480
system and it seems likely that there's

626
00:29:50,340 --> 00:29:49,210
probably more ocean worlds with icy

627
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:50,350
surfaces than there are terrestrial

628
00:29:56,610 --> 00:29:53,410
worlds in our galaxy some more potential

629
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:56,620
in those oceans so so how do you think

630
00:30:00,030 --> 00:29:57,730
what do you think about this term

631
00:30:01,110 --> 00:30:00,040
habitable zone how does it apply to your

632
00:30:02,970 --> 00:30:01,120
own thinking when you're thinking about

633
00:30:05,010 --> 00:30:02,980
potential for life in these worlds that

634
00:30:07,830 --> 00:30:05,020
aren't anywhere close to that habitable

635
00:30:09,810 --> 00:30:07,840
zone right yeah so they the traditional

636
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:09,820
habitable zone as you're alluding to is

637
00:30:15,270 --> 00:30:13,570
that one where the energy for

638
00:30:18,540 --> 00:30:15,280
maintaining liquid water oceans comes

639
00:30:20,850 --> 00:30:18,550
from your parent star if you're too

640
00:30:22,740 --> 00:30:20,860
close like Venus or too hot if you're

641
00:30:24,330 --> 00:30:22,750
too far away like Mars you're too cold

642
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:24,340
if you're at the Earth's Sun distance

643
00:30:28,410 --> 00:30:26,410
then you're you're in just the right

644
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:28,420
region you're in the habitable zone now

645
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:30,490
obviously the story is much more complex

646
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:34,810
than that but but nevertheless this kind

647
00:30:39,540 --> 00:30:37,330
of old Goldilocks scenario the

648
00:30:42,090 --> 00:30:39,550
traditional habitable zone is pretty

649
00:30:45,540 --> 00:30:42,100
limiting when we think about the vast

650
00:30:48,630 --> 00:30:45,550
volume of real estate that exists within

651
00:30:49,610 --> 00:30:48,640
our own solar system within the realms

652
00:30:51,660 --> 00:30:49,620
of these ice-covered

653
00:30:57,630 --> 00:30:51,670
alien oceans of the outer solar system

654
00:30:59,520 --> 00:30:57,640
and so it may be that when you add up

655
00:31:02,160 --> 00:30:59,530
the amount of liquid water within

656
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:02,170
Europa's ocean this is ocean titans

657
00:31:06,510 --> 00:31:05,530
ocean Ganymede Callisto possibly titania

658
00:31:10,620 --> 00:31:06,520
I'm Miranda

659
00:31:14,010 --> 00:31:10,630
maybe even - and Pluto there maybe

660
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:14,020
upwards of 50 times the volume of liquid

661
00:31:20,850 --> 00:31:16,330
water within these oceans of the outer

662
00:31:22,970 --> 00:31:20,860
soul there is found here on earth now of

663
00:31:27,540 --> 00:31:22,980
course the liquid water is not

664
00:31:29,910 --> 00:31:27,550
sufficient to to provide for life as we

665
00:31:33,020 --> 00:31:29,920
know it but it is a necessary condition

666
00:31:37,380 --> 00:31:33,030
for life as we know it and so that much

667
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:37,390
liquid water is certainly changing the

668
00:31:42,660 --> 00:31:40,810
way we think about what it means for a

669
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:42,670
world to be habitable and how much

670
00:31:48,990 --> 00:31:45,330
habitable real estate might be out there

671
00:31:50,310 --> 00:31:49,000
beyond our solar system exactly so yeah

672
00:31:52,500 --> 00:31:50,320
it's an interesting thing you know I

673
00:31:53,910 --> 00:31:52,510
think our thinking is changing more and

674
00:31:56,540 --> 00:31:53,920
more the more we realize these worlds

675
00:31:58,980 --> 00:31:56,550
could be potentially inhabited with life

676
00:32:01,440 --> 00:31:58,990
as we know it or maybe life as we don't

677
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:01,450
know it for some places like Titan but

678
00:32:06,870 --> 00:32:04,690
before we good well just another

679
00:32:10,140 --> 00:32:06,880
critical aspect there that that is part

680
00:32:12,150 --> 00:32:10,150
of kind of the framework of any ocean

681
00:32:17,970 --> 00:32:12,160
worlds program and part of what our what

682
00:32:21,750 --> 00:32:17,980
our some of the key motivation has been

683
00:32:24,870 --> 00:32:21,760
is that the ocean worlds of the outer

684
00:32:29,210 --> 00:32:24,880
solar system present an opportunity to

685
00:32:33,090 --> 00:32:29,220
search for and possibly find extant life

686
00:32:38,100 --> 00:32:33,100
life that is alive today why is that

687
00:32:42,750 --> 00:32:38,110
important I love Mars I do some work on

688
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:42,760
Mars Mars as a as a beautiful place what

689
00:32:47,610 --> 00:32:45,370
our search for life on Mars at least in

690
00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:47,620
its current inception is a search for

691
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:51,910
past life and the Curiosity rover could

692
00:32:58,620 --> 00:32:55,450
turn a corner and on mouth sharp

693
00:33:01,730 --> 00:32:58,630
tomorrow and find stromatolites and that

694
00:33:04,110 --> 00:33:01,740
would that would be revolutionary

695
00:33:06,450 --> 00:33:04,120
everybody would jump up and down it

696
00:33:08,540 --> 00:33:06,460
would be amazing but as we know from

697
00:33:12,330 --> 00:33:08,550
stromatolites here on the earth these

698
00:33:15,919 --> 00:33:12,340
bed forms of possible indications of

699
00:33:18,500 --> 00:33:15,929
past microbial activity on earth

700
00:33:21,500 --> 00:33:18,510
the large biomolecules of life do not

701
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:21,510
last long in the rock record so you can

702
00:33:29,870 --> 00:33:23,970
cannot easily go to a stromatolite and

703
00:33:32,180 --> 00:33:29,880
find a fragment of DNA and so on Mars we

704
00:33:34,510 --> 00:33:32,190
might find fossil evidence of past life

705
00:33:37,070 --> 00:33:34,520
but then we would have a very limited

706
00:33:40,039 --> 00:33:37,080
capability to understand its

707
00:33:42,110 --> 00:33:40,049
biochemistry these ocean worlds of the

708
00:33:44,899 --> 00:33:42,120
outer solar system are places where

709
00:33:48,970 --> 00:33:44,909
liquid water exists today and where we

710
00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:48,980
could eventually find living life and

711
00:33:55,399 --> 00:33:51,600
study its biochemistry to see whether or

712
00:33:57,740 --> 00:33:55,409
not it runs on DNA RNA proteins ATP or

713
00:34:00,049 --> 00:33:57,750
if there's some other game in town and

714
00:34:02,510 --> 00:34:00,059
so that's part of what I find so

715
00:34:04,490 --> 00:34:02,520
compelling about these these ocean

716
00:34:06,740 --> 00:34:04,500
worlds the prospect of finding extant

717
00:34:09,260 --> 00:34:06,750
life where we can truly understand its

718
00:34:11,540 --> 00:34:09,270
biochemistry yeah absolutely comparative

719
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:11,550
biology would be a game-changer right

720
00:34:14,810 --> 00:34:13,290
not just for for looking at different

721
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:14,820
biomolecules and things like that but

722
00:34:19,879 --> 00:34:16,050
understanding this is this ID like what

723
00:34:21,290 --> 00:34:19,889
is life define life maybe if we had

724
00:34:23,629 --> 00:34:21,300
another example we actually would have

725
00:34:25,730 --> 00:34:23,639
something to work against you know it's

726
00:34:27,290 --> 00:34:25,740
rather incredible I do want to open up

727
00:34:28,339 --> 00:34:27,300
now to the audience questions I'm seeing

728
00:34:30,169 --> 00:34:28,349
that we actually have a lot of them

729
00:34:31,579 --> 00:34:30,179
already so again for those of you

730
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:31,589
watching please ask your questions in a

731
00:34:37,940 --> 00:34:35,010
second net on the Facebook page or on

732
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:37,950
Twitter using hashtag ask s or bio let's

733
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:39,210
start off here with a question from

734
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:41,970
tardy grata at just brought up on

735
00:34:47,089 --> 00:34:45,450
Twitter she says I was wondering how you

736
00:34:49,700 --> 00:34:47,099
decided to become an astrobiologist

737
00:34:51,740 --> 00:34:49,710
which we discussed a little bit and then

738
00:34:54,500 --> 00:34:51,750
also do you have any advice for young

739
00:34:57,470 --> 00:34:54,510
students who want to pursue a career in

740
00:34:59,480 --> 00:34:57,480
this very vast field yeah this is a

741
00:35:01,670 --> 00:34:59,490
great question I might spend a fair

742
00:35:05,990 --> 00:35:01,680
amount of time on this one because it's

743
00:35:08,210 --> 00:35:06,000
a really important one I've got loads

744
00:35:13,910 --> 00:35:08,220
and loads of stories of the trials and

745
00:35:16,070 --> 00:35:13,920
tribulations of my own path and but I do

746
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:16,080
want to mention I mean this is my own

747
00:35:21,829 --> 00:35:18,570
path listen let's state the obvious I'm

748
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:21,839
a white male and and I was becoming an

749
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:24,930
astrobiologist in the in the mid to late

750
00:35:29,100 --> 00:35:28,530
90s and so you know I can't even imagine

751
00:35:34,260 --> 00:35:29,110
what

752
00:35:36,210 --> 00:35:34,270
like for anyone coming without that kind

753
00:35:39,510 --> 00:35:36,220
of advantage of being a white male

754
00:35:40,860 --> 00:35:39,520
especially back back in those days but

755
00:35:42,660 --> 00:35:40,870
nevertheless the the trials and

756
00:35:45,450 --> 00:35:42,670
tribulations that I experienced which is

757
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:45,460
kind of the tip of the iceberg for these

758
00:35:52,740 --> 00:35:50,370
challenges so having said that

759
00:36:00,740 --> 00:35:52,750
astrobiology was not a field when I was

760
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:00,750
an undergrad I the kind of canonical

761
00:36:09,540 --> 00:36:04,450
astrobiology is now a thing goes back to

762
00:36:15,060 --> 00:36:09,550
the alh84001 timeframe in roughly 1997

763
00:36:19,260 --> 00:36:15,070
or so and actually there was a thing

764
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:19,270
this is 1999 so this is a key article on

765
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:22,810
astrobiology from Jerry soften and Jerry

766
00:36:30,470 --> 00:36:24,970
soften was the project scientist for the

767
00:36:34,530 --> 00:36:30,480
Viking missions and Jerry was just a

768
00:36:39,420 --> 00:36:34,540
real Mensch and he formed the NASA

769
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:39,430
Astrobiology Academy and in 1997 they

770
00:36:47,250 --> 00:36:43,450
started an astrobiology branch of the

771
00:36:50,190 --> 00:36:47,260
NASA Academy at NASA Ames and I applied

772
00:36:51,750 --> 00:36:50,200
to that as an undergrad when I first saw

773
00:36:53,810 --> 00:36:51,760
that and this is back in the days when

774
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:53,820
the internet was not that that prevalent

775
00:37:00,150 --> 00:36:56,530
and so there was a website for it and

776
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:00,160
they had a little Europa melt probe but

777
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:04,330
I applied to that program and was so

778
00:37:10,860 --> 00:37:08,770
excited about it and I just so happened

779
00:37:13,070 --> 00:37:10,870
the day before the application was due I

780
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:13,080
had long since sent off my application I

781
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:15,610
called to check to make sure that my

782
00:37:20,370 --> 00:37:18,970
application had been received and the

783
00:37:23,490 --> 00:37:20,380
person on the other end who answered

784
00:37:25,380 --> 00:37:23,500
Doug o Hanley who ran that program well

785
00:37:28,470 --> 00:37:25,390
I don't have any application with that

786
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:28,480
name on it no sorry I don't know what to

787
00:37:35,820 --> 00:37:34,210
tell you so I I was devastated but I

788
00:37:36,930 --> 00:37:35,830
ended up calling around and trying to

789
00:37:38,340 --> 00:37:36,940
figure out what happened to my

790
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:38,350
application and it turned out that it

791
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:40,810
was sitting on the desk of somebody at

792
00:37:44,759 --> 00:37:42,130
the local

793
00:37:46,349 --> 00:37:44,769
New Hampshire Space Grant and that

794
00:37:47,819 --> 00:37:46,359
person had been on vacation or something

795
00:37:50,789 --> 00:37:47,829
and they were supposed to turn it into

796
00:37:51,380 --> 00:37:50,799
NASA more broadly and and but that never

797
00:37:53,849 --> 00:37:51,390
happened

798
00:37:57,630 --> 00:37:53,859
thankfully the person at the New

799
00:38:01,229 --> 00:37:57,640
Hampshire Space Grant then faxed it on

800
00:38:03,329 --> 00:38:01,239
to to the folks at Ames and so my

801
00:38:06,779 --> 00:38:03,339
application made it in time to be

802
00:38:09,329 --> 00:38:06,789
considered I'd like to use that that

803
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:09,339
story just to emphasize the need for

804
00:38:14,430 --> 00:38:12,970
persistence and I never followed up and

805
00:38:16,529 --> 00:38:14,440
just sort of checked out you know just a

806
00:38:18,299 --> 00:38:16,539
stupid thing just check on my

807
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:18,309
application make sure it was received at

808
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:20,410
the other end and I never checked on

809
00:38:24,509 --> 00:38:22,930
that I never would have heard from the

810
00:38:25,729 --> 00:38:24,519
program I would have thought that I was

811
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:25,739
just rejected outright

812
00:38:31,979 --> 00:38:30,130
and I would have been really sad since

813
00:38:36,329 --> 00:38:31,989
it seemed like that astrobiology program

814
00:38:39,900 --> 00:38:36,339
was it was exactly what I what I wanted

815
00:38:42,660 --> 00:38:39,910
to do so now that was the first

816
00:38:45,779 --> 00:38:42,670
internship that I did the astrobiology

817
00:38:49,140 --> 00:38:45,789
Academy back in 1997 and that helps

818
00:38:56,370 --> 00:38:49,150
build some other bridges towards

819
00:38:59,009 --> 00:38:56,380
eventually working at JPL and if we have

820
00:39:01,789 --> 00:38:59,019
time there's a nice story with I met

821
00:39:08,670 --> 00:39:01,799
Jill tarter during that internship and

822
00:39:12,450 --> 00:39:08,680
he gave me some good advice and but onto

823
00:39:14,370 --> 00:39:12,460
some logistics for for students and this

824
00:39:17,849 --> 00:39:14,380
kind of falls into a bit of my

825
00:39:19,859 --> 00:39:17,859
experience with with Jill I'll go

826
00:39:22,170 --> 00:39:19,869
through just a couple of things and then

827
00:39:25,739 --> 00:39:22,180
these points are ones that I've

828
00:39:27,870 --> 00:39:25,749
developed over years of talking with

829
00:39:30,509 --> 00:39:27,880
students and and trying to distill out

830
00:39:34,789 --> 00:39:30,519
some some good advice first and foremost

831
00:39:37,769 --> 00:39:34,799
is to find your question astrobiology is

832
00:39:40,829 --> 00:39:37,779
biased nature broad and can be somewhat

833
00:39:46,450 --> 00:39:40,839
vague and I often get students say you

834
00:39:48,250 --> 00:39:46,460
know I want to develop spectra

835
00:39:50,380 --> 00:39:48,260
the bio signatures I want to do this

836
00:39:53,020 --> 00:39:50,390
thing or that thing that's that's not

837
00:39:56,740 --> 00:39:53,030
really a question figure out your

838
00:39:59,589 --> 00:39:56,750
question and then it's some of these

839
00:40:05,040 --> 00:39:59,599
other aspects kind of come out of really

840
00:40:08,140 --> 00:40:05,050
developing your question and so that and

841
00:40:10,690 --> 00:40:08,150
if you're gonna pursue a PhD you need to

842
00:40:13,839 --> 00:40:10,700
be very specific and make sure that your

843
00:40:17,220 --> 00:40:13,849
question is framed as an hypothesis

844
00:40:20,410 --> 00:40:17,230
because really doing a PhD is about

845
00:40:21,700 --> 00:40:20,420
adding new knowledge to the Canon of

846
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:21,710
knowledge that is out there on a

847
00:40:30,549 --> 00:40:26,930
specific topic and a PhD really is kind

848
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:30,559
of a test of your ability to advance

849
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:33,170
human knowledge even by just a tiny

850
00:40:37,450 --> 00:40:35,450
increment and so you really have to

851
00:40:40,829 --> 00:40:37,460
dedicate yourself to it

852
00:40:43,930 --> 00:40:40,839
you have to make a concrete scientific

853
00:40:45,670 --> 00:40:43,940
contribution before broadening out and

854
00:40:47,910 --> 00:40:45,680
and all too often I see that happening

855
00:40:52,359 --> 00:40:47,920
in astrobiology where where people

856
00:40:54,370 --> 00:40:52,369
broaden out too soon and you really they

857
00:40:56,230 --> 00:40:54,380
admissions stay specific at least

858
00:41:00,190 --> 00:40:56,240
through your PhD maybe use your postdoc

859
00:41:01,750 --> 00:41:00,200
as an opportunity to Braun now that said

860
00:41:05,170 --> 00:41:01,760
if you're having a hard time finding

861
00:41:06,970 --> 00:41:05,180
your question and my recommendation is

862
00:41:10,900 --> 00:41:06,980
to become a microbiologist or an

863
00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:10,910
oceanographer and I say that because I

864
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:13,730
in part where I wish that I had gone on

865
00:41:18,309 --> 00:41:16,010
that path I studied physics and

866
00:41:20,890 --> 00:41:18,319
astronomy and I have no regrets on that

867
00:41:22,839 --> 00:41:20,900
but my goodness microbiology and

868
00:41:26,730 --> 00:41:22,849
oceanography there's so much great work

869
00:41:29,140 --> 00:41:26,740
to be done that is really valuable for

870
00:41:31,900 --> 00:41:29,150
understanding Earth's biosphere and

871
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:31,910
earth as a planet and you can then

872
00:41:37,660 --> 00:41:34,130
bridge to astrobiology quite quite

873
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:37,670
easily and so I advise students to go

874
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:40,010
into those fields if they are still kind

875
00:41:44,589 --> 00:41:42,410
of in in search mode but there's a lot

876
00:41:47,230 --> 00:41:44,599
of low-hanging scientific fruit they're

877
00:41:49,420 --> 00:41:47,240
exciting fields you can get out into the

878
00:41:52,420 --> 00:41:49,430
field on a cruise you can get data

879
00:41:54,430 --> 00:41:52,430
easily and that's important at least

880
00:41:56,589 --> 00:41:54,440
compared to planetary science you can

881
00:41:59,770 --> 00:41:56,599
get data easily if you go into

882
00:42:03,890 --> 00:41:59,780
microbiology or ocean

883
00:42:07,250 --> 00:42:03,900
and as I mentioned don't become an

884
00:42:09,140 --> 00:42:07,260
astrobiologist too early specialize and

885
00:42:13,670 --> 00:42:09,150
make a concrete scientific contribution

886
00:42:17,570 --> 00:42:13,680
before before broadening and to that end

887
00:42:21,140 --> 00:42:17,580
I took time off in between undergrad and

888
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:21,150
grad school I worked at NASA Ames I went

889
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:26,130
I hitchhiked around the u.s. and around

890
00:42:31,130 --> 00:42:29,370
Europe and Russia and Africa juggled to

891
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:31,140
make money on the sides of streets when

892
00:42:39,950 --> 00:42:33,690
I needed a little little cash for food

893
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:39,960
and things life is short and so if you

894
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:41,930
have any doubts take some time off

895
00:42:46,490 --> 00:42:44,010
really the only time that you're going

896
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:46,500
to be able to to take off is between

897
00:42:50,300 --> 00:42:49,050
undergrad and graduate school and as

898
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:50,310
long as you make sure that you do

899
00:42:56,030 --> 00:42:51,690
something somewhat productive in that

900
00:42:58,460 --> 00:42:56,040
timeframe you'll you'll be able to apply

901
00:43:01,330 --> 00:42:58,470
to grad school without that time off

902
00:43:15,170 --> 00:43:01,340
being a negative on your application I

903
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:15,180
work for a year in a lab work is a ship

904
00:43:20,300 --> 00:43:17,850
and on on a research vessel or something

905
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:20,310
like that to kind of explore what

906
00:43:26,510 --> 00:43:21,450
interests you and what kind of

907
00:43:29,660 --> 00:43:26,520
opportunities exist and let's see just

908
00:43:42,590 --> 00:43:29,670
lastly well looking so many things grant

909
00:43:45,650 --> 00:43:42,600
I would say mentor above all and seek

910
00:43:49,550 --> 00:43:45,660
out somebody who inspires you again life

911
00:43:55,310 --> 00:43:49,560
is too short life is too short to work

912
00:43:57,620 --> 00:43:55,320
with a jerk simply put and I think my

913
00:44:01,580 --> 00:43:57,630
friend John Speer has said something

914
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:01,590
along the lines of of that and work with

915
00:44:07,610 --> 00:44:04,050
somebody who inspires you who also you

916
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:07,620
know will help cultivate your interest

917
00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:10,570
in in science and

918
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:12,730
take some time to to kind of search

919
00:44:17,310 --> 00:44:15,370
around and and find somebody who's

920
00:44:19,830 --> 00:44:17,320
pursuing questions that interest you and

921
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:19,840
somebody who's a human being with whom

922
00:44:24,180 --> 00:44:22,450
you want to work and I spent quite a bit

923
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:24,190
of time searching around and I had a

924
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:29,650
couple of different options and so that

925
00:44:35,460 --> 00:44:30,850
sort of connects back to Jill tarter

926
00:44:37,770 --> 00:44:35,470
when I was an intern at NASA Ames Jill

927
00:44:40,050 --> 00:44:37,780
came and gave a talk to our astrobiology

928
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:40,060
Academy and at the end she kind of made

929
00:44:43,890 --> 00:44:41,650
this offhand comment if you ever want to

930
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:43,900
come to the SETI Institute and see how

931
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:44,770
we search for extraterrestrial

932
00:44:50,850 --> 00:44:48,970
intelligence feel free to come by and

933
00:44:53,810 --> 00:44:50,860
truth be told I think she kind of said

934
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:53,820
it not thinking anybody would follow up

935
00:44:58,890 --> 00:44:57,010
but I had grown up obsessed with SETI I

936
00:45:00,540 --> 00:44:58,900
had got in there a little newsletter is

937
00:45:06,060 --> 00:45:00,550
that they would occasionally send out in

938
00:45:08,460 --> 00:45:06,070
the mail and so I walked and took a bus

939
00:45:11,220 --> 00:45:08,470
and eventually found my way to landings

940
00:45:14,190 --> 00:45:11,230
drive which is where the original SETI

941
00:45:16,190 --> 00:45:14,200
Institute was and went up to the the

942
00:45:19,170 --> 00:45:16,200
counter there and I think Edna Devore

943
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:19,180
was at the at the counter they I said

944
00:45:24,690 --> 00:45:22,570
she'll tire mentioned that you know I

945
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:24,700
can maybe see some of the computers

946
00:45:28,590 --> 00:45:26,170
where you're generating the waterfall

947
00:45:31,260 --> 00:45:28,600
plots and everything and so and I went

948
00:45:32,460 --> 00:45:31,270
to check on Jill the Jill came out and

949
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:32,470
she was a little bit frazzled at the

950
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:34,930
time and but graciously brought me in to

951
00:45:42,390 --> 00:45:38,290
just sit here and watch and it turns out

952
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:42,400
that I had happened to stop by in 1997

953
00:45:47,130 --> 00:45:44,770
during there was some sort of anomaly

954
00:45:50,820 --> 00:45:47,140
with the Soho satellite that was a that

955
00:45:54,180 --> 00:45:50,830
was a big possible signal they didn't

956
00:45:57,060 --> 00:45:54,190
know it was so hot at the time and so

957
00:45:58,980 --> 00:45:57,070
Jill was very patient with me and just

958
00:46:00,570 --> 00:45:58,990
kind of occasionally saying this is what

959
00:46:03,540 --> 00:46:00,580
you're seeing this is exciting just stay

960
00:46:04,500 --> 00:46:03,550
quiet and we've got champagne in the in

961
00:46:11,970 --> 00:46:04,510
the fridge over there just in case

962
00:46:15,150 --> 00:46:11,980
everything goes yeah yeah Jill had kind

963
00:46:18,270 --> 00:46:15,160
of taken pity on me and then connected

964
00:46:20,630 --> 00:46:18,280
me up with a couple of other folks and

965
00:46:23,070 --> 00:46:20,640
eventually that led to me meeting

966
00:46:24,500 --> 00:46:23,080
Christopher Chava who then later became

967
00:46:27,290 --> 00:46:24,510
my PhD advisor

968
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:27,300
so that's the abbreviated version thanks

969
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:30,210
al we actually had Joel on the show just

970
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:32,370
last year and it's cool that was during

971
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:34,890
the NASA Academy for for me I was in the

972
00:46:40,340 --> 00:46:37,770
NASA Academy at Ames in 2007 and it was

973
00:46:42,890 --> 00:46:40,350
meeting Peter Diamandis of the XPrize

974
00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:42,900
foundation zero-g corporation he kind of

975
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:44,910
inspired me to then continue my career

976
00:46:48,170 --> 00:46:46,650
in a different way I had degrees in

977
00:46:50,390 --> 00:46:48,180
biology and chemistry and he kind of

978
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:50,400
inspired me to then pursue astrophysics

979
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:51,930
and geology in graduate school which I

980
00:46:56,150 --> 00:46:53,850
ended up doing that's pretty cool

981
00:46:58,090 --> 00:46:56,160
actually I have Doug Hanley signature on

982
00:47:00,410 --> 00:46:58,100
a guitar sitting right here beside me

983
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:00,420
audience who are unaware Doug passed

984
00:47:04,300 --> 00:47:03,210
away some years ago unfortunately we

985
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:04,310
lost him

986
00:47:07,940 --> 00:47:06,570
well yeah it's a wonderful answer for

987
00:47:10,010 --> 00:47:07,950
everyone everyone watching

988
00:47:12,110 --> 00:47:10,020
unfortunately IC Academy has changed a

989
00:47:13,610 --> 00:47:12,120
lot these past several years so there's

990
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:13,620
not what the astrobiology Academy like

991
00:47:16,870 --> 00:47:14,730
there used to be but there still are

992
00:47:19,190 --> 00:47:16,880
lots of opportunities for undergraduates

993
00:47:20,330 --> 00:47:19,200
here in the US we also have the NSF

994
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:20,340
research experiences for undergraduates

995
00:47:24,860 --> 00:47:23,370
programmer ru program if you're

996
00:47:26,240 --> 00:47:24,870
interested in microbiology and that kind

997
00:47:28,460 --> 00:47:26,250
of stuff you can apply for those as well

998
00:47:29,630 --> 00:47:28,470
but we do have a lot of questions and so

999
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:29,640
I'm gonna try to jump into a few more of

1000
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:32,130
those if we can hear Kevin mode Nasser

1001
00:47:36,380 --> 00:47:34,650
from Sagan net asks so being at the

1002
00:47:38,450 --> 00:47:36,390
bottom of the ocean in that in their

1003
00:47:40,220 --> 00:47:38,460
submarines how did that feel on a

1004
00:47:42,710 --> 00:47:40,230
personal level and did it change any of

1005
00:47:49,900 --> 00:47:42,720
your ideas or morals about you know your

1006
00:47:58,520 --> 00:47:55,490
but I don't think it necessarily changed

1007
00:48:04,670 --> 00:47:58,530
anything more than really codified

1008
00:48:06,890 --> 00:48:04,680
things in a in a much different realm as

1009
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:06,900
I mentioned in the book I grew up in the

1010
00:48:13,190 --> 00:48:11,490
mountains and and had that kind of I'm

1011
00:48:16,970 --> 00:48:13,200
not a religious person but I'm spiritual

1012
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:16,980
I'm the kind of love the connection with

1013
00:48:22,340 --> 00:48:20,610
nature and I've always been able to read

1014
00:48:27,290 --> 00:48:22,350
the trees and the clouds and the

1015
00:48:30,590 --> 00:48:27,300
mountains but out at sea I didn't know

1016
00:48:32,930 --> 00:48:30,600
how to do that it was it was unsettling

1017
00:48:34,700 --> 00:48:32,940
initially and this is just being on a

1018
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:34,710
ship where I were where I could not

1019
00:48:38,330 --> 00:48:36,570
we're surrounded by

1020
00:48:42,890 --> 00:48:38,340
by ocean this isn't even getting into

1021
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:42,900
the depths of the ocean and so that

1022
00:48:49,100 --> 00:48:47,130
experience of learning how to read the

1023
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:49,110
ocean learning on what the clouds were

1024
00:48:54,140 --> 00:48:51,450
telling me out at sea learning what the

1025
00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:54,150
waves were saying and then getting down

1026
00:48:59,990 --> 00:48:57,570
into the the depths of the ocean really

1027
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:00,000
was a different dimension of the same

1028
00:49:08,570 --> 00:49:03,570
kind of connection to the natural world

1029
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:08,580
that I experienced just hiking through

1030
00:49:13,190 --> 00:49:10,410
mud puddles back home in Vermont so it

1031
00:49:17,330 --> 00:49:13,200
was it was more of like a extending the

1032
00:49:19,940 --> 00:49:17,340
axes as opposed to something entirely

1033
00:49:23,210 --> 00:49:19,950
new thanks s so for our viewers get out

1034
00:49:25,670 --> 00:49:23,220
there and explore the nature another

1035
00:49:28,250 --> 00:49:25,680
question so Anna root mohanty that's

1036
00:49:30,380 --> 00:49:28,260
Trey ologist on Twitter asks and this is

1037
00:49:33,110 --> 00:49:30,390
a clicker question what are the biggest

1038
00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:33,120
challenges we face during the Europe a

1039
00:49:44,240 --> 00:49:41,730
clipper mission so the the main answer

1040
00:49:47,470 --> 00:49:44,250
that is given to that question is the

1041
00:49:53,030 --> 00:49:47,480
radiation environment of Jupiter and the

1042
00:49:58,040 --> 00:49:53,040
the environment around Europa and so

1043
00:50:00,890 --> 00:49:58,050
that's that's challenging but I'll tell

1044
00:50:03,620 --> 00:50:00,900
you as a scientist I find a tremendous

1045
00:50:06,170 --> 00:50:03,630
amount of inspiration from the engineers

1046
00:50:10,750 --> 00:50:06,180
with whom I work I don't know how many

1047
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:14,540
blossoming engineers but please go in

1048
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:16,890
the engineering and there's a tremendous

1049
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:18,090
amount of great engineering that

1050
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:23,570
astrobiology needs we scientists are the

1051
00:50:33,010 --> 00:50:28,650
are the the crazy fools with the big

1052
00:50:39,230 --> 00:50:33,020
questions and we count on the engineers

1053
00:50:40,700 --> 00:50:39,240
to solve the problems the pragmatic

1054
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:40,710
problems of what it actually takes to

1055
00:50:45,410 --> 00:50:43,650
get out there to these worlds and answer

1056
00:50:47,570 --> 00:50:45,420
these questions so on the clipper

1057
00:50:48,700 --> 00:50:47,580
mission it has just been tremendous to

1058
00:50:53,380 --> 00:50:48,710
see

1059
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:53,390
the engineers tackle and solve the

1060
00:50:58,569 --> 00:50:57,530
radiation problem as well as ways in

1061
00:51:01,000 --> 00:50:58,579
which to have all the different

1062
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:01,010
instruments code more sighted so they

1063
00:51:05,460 --> 00:51:03,530
can all collect data that couples

1064
00:51:09,099 --> 00:51:05,470
together quite well like a Russian doll

1065
00:51:12,849 --> 00:51:09,109
and so it really is a remarkable mission

1066
00:51:16,780 --> 00:51:12,859
the trajectory team has just given this

1067
00:51:19,870 --> 00:51:16,790
this wonderful tour that will do these

1068
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:19,880
flybys with close approaches that will

1069
00:51:25,450 --> 00:51:23,210
kind of almost like a hoop going around

1070
00:51:27,910 --> 00:51:25,460
different parts of your belly you'll get

1071
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:27,920
a close approach on different regions of

1072
00:51:32,589 --> 00:51:31,130
Europa and so it's it's an incredibly

1073
00:51:34,690 --> 00:51:32,599
exciting mission I just hope we can get

1074
00:51:37,809 --> 00:51:34,700
it to launchpad sooner as opposed to

1075
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:37,819
later yeah absolutely I'm really excited

1076
00:51:40,660 --> 00:51:39,290
for clicker there's a lot of science to

1077
00:51:41,589 --> 00:51:40,670
get out of that but you're right though

1078
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:41,599
I mean that the engineering is

1079
00:51:44,620 --> 00:51:42,650
incredible some of these things that

1080
00:51:46,150 --> 00:51:44,630
we've been doing on Mars and you know

1081
00:51:47,470 --> 00:51:46,160
something probes out to other worlds and

1082
00:51:50,410 --> 00:51:47,480
outside of our solar system it's just

1083
00:51:56,710 --> 00:51:50,420
incredible to think of and I should

1084
00:51:59,079 --> 00:51:56,720
mention grandma just really please do

1085
00:52:00,970 --> 00:51:59,089
consider if you're interested in

1086
00:52:04,059 --> 00:52:00,980
astrobiology consider the fields of

1087
00:52:08,740 --> 00:52:04,069
engineering in many ways my engineering

1088
00:52:15,039 --> 00:52:08,750
friends at JPL kind of have a a more fun

1089
00:52:16,660 --> 00:52:15,049
life they've got a hard life but even

1090
00:52:18,970 --> 00:52:16,670
though all that stuff that I described

1091
00:52:21,490 --> 00:52:18,980
earlier running a lab helping can be a

1092
00:52:23,620 --> 00:52:21,500
part of missions although that even

1093
00:52:25,690 --> 00:52:23,630
though that sounds exciting it's really

1094
00:52:28,089 --> 00:52:25,700
important especially for young students

1095
00:52:30,099 --> 00:52:28,099
to appreciate that a lot of being a

1096
00:52:33,549 --> 00:52:30,109
scientist is not fun

1097
00:52:37,030 --> 00:52:33,559
it's writing proposals getting

1098
00:52:40,539 --> 00:52:37,040
rejections I like to say failure has to

1099
00:52:44,260 --> 00:52:40,549
be an option I have failed so many times

1100
00:52:46,930 --> 00:52:44,270
I have submitted countless proposals to

1101
00:52:49,690 --> 00:52:46,940
the roses program failure failure

1102
00:52:52,839 --> 00:52:49,700
failure of submitted countless proposals

1103
00:52:55,720 --> 00:52:52,849
to instruments to be on missions I've

1104
00:52:58,750 --> 00:52:55,730
been on a lot of mission proposals that

1105
00:53:00,730 --> 00:52:58,760
have not been selected failure has to be

1106
00:53:01,900 --> 00:53:00,740
an option you have to learn not to take

1107
00:53:03,910 --> 00:53:01,910
these things personally

1108
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:03,920
you have to learn just to pick yourself

1109
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:06,010
up off the floor

1110
00:53:11,170 --> 00:53:08,650
count on certain friends who can help

1111
00:53:15,549 --> 00:53:11,180
pull the little marionette strings to

1112
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:15,559
help get you up off the floor and so

1113
00:53:19,900 --> 00:53:17,210
being a scientist whether it's in

1114
00:53:24,099 --> 00:53:19,910
astrobiology or in any other field is a

1115
00:53:28,900 --> 00:53:24,109
difficult life do not choose that path

1116
00:53:31,599 --> 00:53:28,910
lightly I love it but trust me it's it's

1117
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:31,609
miserable for a decent fraction of the

1118
00:53:35,470 --> 00:53:33,650
time you really have to be obsessed with

1119
00:53:37,299 --> 00:53:35,480
this stuff and be willing to make the

1120
00:53:38,770 --> 00:53:37,309
sacrifices that come along with all the

1121
00:53:49,660 --> 00:53:38,780
failure and rejection and stuff that

1122
00:53:53,260 --> 00:53:49,670
you'll face meanwhile not that engineers

1123
00:53:56,319 --> 00:53:53,270
have it easy but the life of an engineer

1124
00:53:58,930 --> 00:53:56,329
at JPL is one where they work in very

1125
00:54:01,510 --> 00:53:58,940
close-knit teams the structure is such

1126
00:54:04,630 --> 00:54:01,520
that they they get assigned to a mission

1127
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:04,640
they have less autonomy they don't they

1128
00:54:09,250 --> 00:54:06,410
don't necessarily get to decide their

1129
00:54:11,890 --> 00:54:09,260
own fate well I mean come on at JPL

1130
00:54:14,349 --> 00:54:11,900
you're working on Mars 2020 or Europa

1131
00:54:18,730 --> 00:54:14,359
clipper or hopefully someday a Europa

1132
00:54:21,240 --> 00:54:18,740
Lander and they don't have to write

1133
00:54:23,829 --> 00:54:21,250
proposals they don't have to publish

1134
00:54:26,319 --> 00:54:23,839
they don't face all that rejection that

1135
00:54:28,750 --> 00:54:26,329
we scientists face and yet they get to

1136
00:54:30,039 --> 00:54:28,760
solve some of the really hard problems

1137
00:54:32,740 --> 00:54:30,049
or they get to tackle some of those

1138
00:54:34,990 --> 00:54:32,750
really hard problems and so I just want

1139
00:54:38,079 --> 00:54:35,000
folks to to not think of just the

1140
00:54:39,609 --> 00:54:38,089
sciences but also of the engineering

1141
00:54:41,380 --> 00:54:39,619
aspects of what it takes for NASA

1142
00:54:44,740 --> 00:54:41,390
missions to get done and in particular

1143
00:54:45,819 --> 00:54:44,750
astrobiology missions definitely yeah

1144
00:54:47,289 --> 00:54:45,829
they're there's so much that we can do

1145
00:54:48,370 --> 00:54:47,299
together when engineering and scientists

1146
00:54:50,349 --> 00:54:48,380
cannot come together and make these

1147
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:50,359
things happen we only have a few minutes

1148
00:54:53,380 --> 00:54:51,650
left and so you want to pop in a few

1149
00:54:56,049 --> 00:54:53,390
more questions here

1150
00:54:59,380 --> 00:54:56,059
this one's from Rohan Shyam Chowdhury on

1151
00:55:01,660 --> 00:54:59,390
Twitter at Rohan s Chowdhury and they

1152
00:55:03,789 --> 00:55:01,670
asked suppose we find life in one of

1153
00:55:08,650 --> 00:55:03,799
these alien oceans what's what's the

1154
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:08,660
next step yeah I like to say that yeah

1155
00:55:11,950 --> 00:55:10,130
it's not gonna change the way you make

1156
00:55:14,630 --> 00:55:11,960
your coffee in the morning it's not

1157
00:55:17,610 --> 00:55:14,640
gonna shorten your commute

1158
00:55:20,100 --> 00:55:17,620
but I spent a chapter in the book on

1159
00:55:23,870 --> 00:55:20,110
this this concept that I like to frame

1160
00:55:27,470 --> 00:55:23,880
as a periodic table for life

1161
00:55:32,970 --> 00:55:27,480
think about what it was like for the

1162
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:32,980
early chemists Lavoisier Mendeleev etc

1163
00:55:45,380 --> 00:55:37,570
we're studying the elements and what it

1164
00:55:53,490 --> 00:55:50,370
oxygen didn't quite make sense and our

1165
00:55:56,820 --> 00:55:53,500
atomic theory for matter didn't quite

1166
00:55:59,400 --> 00:55:56,830
fully click into place until we had a

1167
00:56:02,850 --> 00:55:59,410
periodic table of the elements and we

1168
00:56:05,190 --> 00:56:02,860
could see how they were were related and

1169
00:56:08,580 --> 00:56:05,200
how they they could connect with each

1170
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:08,590
other I love to think about a similar

1171
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:11,650
framework perhaps existing out there in

1172
00:56:16,020 --> 00:56:13,570
our universe somewhere where there is a

1173
00:56:20,730 --> 00:56:16,030
periodic table for life some great tree

1174
00:56:22,740 --> 00:56:20,740
of life that gives us a pattern for the

1175
00:56:24,750 --> 00:56:22,750
different biochemistry and the different

1176
00:56:28,170 --> 00:56:24,760
ways in which life works and this

1177
00:56:30,990 --> 00:56:28,180
connects back to the defining an element

1178
00:56:33,090 --> 00:56:31,000
in part took the periodic table so

1179
00:56:35,930 --> 00:56:33,100
perhaps defining life and understanding

1180
00:56:38,340 --> 00:56:35,940
what life truly is will require

1181
00:56:40,500 --> 00:56:38,350
discovering life elsewhere if it exists

1182
00:56:42,900 --> 00:56:40,510
and putting into a framework of the

1183
00:56:45,180 --> 00:56:42,910
periodic table and so I'd love to think

1184
00:56:49,230 --> 00:56:45,190
also that perhaps is elsewhere in the

1185
00:56:51,660 --> 00:56:49,240
galaxy there is a classroom where those

1186
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:51,670
students are in a civilization that has

1187
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:53,290
already discovered life beyond their

1188
00:56:58,920 --> 00:56:56,050
home planet and on the side of that

1189
00:57:01,920 --> 00:56:58,930
classroom is not just a periodic table

1190
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:01,930
of the elements but also a periodic

1191
00:57:08,250 --> 00:57:05,530
table of life and they are just looking

1192
00:57:09,860 --> 00:57:08,260
at other examples out there maybe they

1193
00:57:13,140 --> 00:57:09,870
already know of life here on earth

1194
00:57:15,470 --> 00:57:13,150
maybe they don't and maybe someday we

1195
00:57:19,940 --> 00:57:15,480
will be notched into a little section of

1196
00:57:21,690 --> 00:57:19,950
that chart that they have on their wall

1197
00:57:23,100 --> 00:57:21,700
it's just it's not like a Glass

1198
00:57:25,290 --> 00:57:23,110
Menagerie where they have like a human

1199
00:57:28,620 --> 00:57:25,300
inside

1200
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:28,630
I love that idea yeah again comparative

1201
00:57:33,420 --> 00:57:31,450
biology would be so huge for us we are

1202
00:57:36,330 --> 00:57:33,430
at the top of the hour if you have time

1203
00:57:38,940 --> 00:57:36,340
we ask one more question sure yeah okay

1204
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:38,950
so and this question is from a long time

1205
00:57:43,740 --> 00:57:42,010
audience member Tom Caruso and it takes

1206
00:57:45,390 --> 00:57:43,750
my mind down to our oceans and makes me

1207
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:45,400
think about some of these weird you know

1208
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:47,650
mid-ocean rivers and you know we're

1209
00:57:51,900 --> 00:57:49,450
weird basins in the on the ocean floor

1210
00:57:54,990 --> 00:57:51,910
of different kind of Brian levels of

1211
00:57:57,600 --> 00:57:55,000
fluids so Tom wants to know that if it's

1212
00:57:59,940 --> 00:57:57,610
possible that ice brine channels in the

1213
00:58:02,430 --> 00:57:59,950
bottom of an alien ocean are the alien

1214
00:58:04,530 --> 00:58:02,440
host and ocean ice shells if they could

1215
00:58:04,890 --> 00:58:04,540
satisfy the criteria for the origin of

1216
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:04,900
life

1217
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:07,810
so gradients amongst minerals salts pH

1218
00:58:12,330 --> 00:58:10,090
there's kind of things what your view of

1219
00:58:13,830 --> 00:58:12,340
that would be yeah and my short answer

1220
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:13,840
is yes I think there's a lot of

1221
00:58:20,580 --> 00:58:16,570
interesting potential there micro Sol

1222
00:58:23,100 --> 00:58:20,590
Alison Marie and I wrote a paper in

1223
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:23,110
astrobiology about this and it's

1224
00:58:27,210 --> 00:58:24,610
something that we're looking at here on

1225
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:27,220
earth these these practicals and and how

1226
00:58:33,660 --> 00:58:30,730
those chemical gradients may provide

1227
00:58:37,790 --> 00:58:33,670
some interesting catalytic surfaces and

1228
00:58:41,100 --> 00:58:37,800
chemistry then it could help with the

1229
00:58:43,890 --> 00:58:41,110
the pathway to the origin of life so I

1230
00:58:48,990 --> 00:58:43,900
think there's a lot of low-hanging fruit

1231
00:58:50,370 --> 00:58:49,000
in the realm of cold origins nasan well

1232
00:58:51,690 --> 00:58:50,380
I think we're gonna sum up there we

1233
00:58:54,210 --> 00:58:51,700
actually have a lot more questions so

1234
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:54,220
for all of our viewers to reach out to

1235
00:59:00,660 --> 00:58:55,210
you where's the best way for them to

1236
00:59:03,420 --> 00:59:00,670
find you online alien oceans is my

1237
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:03,430
twitter handle I'm not very good on

1238
00:59:10,740 --> 00:59:06,130
Twitter my thumb's are too big or

1239
00:59:13,710 --> 00:59:10,750
something but the I try and be somewhat

1240
00:59:15,870 --> 00:59:13,720
responsive on there I just also have a

1241
00:59:18,020 --> 00:59:15,880
hard time with the character limit and

1242
00:59:19,950 --> 00:59:18,030
all that stuff but I'll do my best

1243
00:59:21,090 --> 00:59:19,960
awesome yeah so for all of you watching

1244
00:59:23,370 --> 00:59:21,100
thank you so much for all your questions

1245
00:59:25,910 --> 00:59:23,380
miss RB didn't get to that many of them

1246
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:25,920
please reach out to dr. Kevin hand on

1247
00:59:31,430 --> 00:59:28,290
please read his book alien oceans it's a

1248
00:59:32,420 --> 00:59:31,440
fantastic read and thank you all for

1249
00:59:34,250 --> 00:59:32,430
joining us

1250
00:59:37,250 --> 00:59:34,260
and when you're going forward this month

1251
00:59:40,430 --> 00:59:37,260
and thinking about astrobiology what

1252
00:59:41,990 --> 00:59:40,440
what are the major challenges in the

1253
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:42,000
engineering for us to do the

1254
00:59:46,430 --> 00:59:44,490
astrobiology what we want to do for our

1255
00:59:49,610 --> 00:59:46,440
audience members why not reach out to us

1256
00:59:51,110 --> 00:59:49,620
at Sagan net org at second order on

1257
00:59:52,580 --> 00:59:51,120
Twitter let us know what your thoughts

1258
00:59:54,650 --> 00:59:52,590
are what are the big challenges for us

1259
00:59:56,060 --> 00:59:54,660
to do to bring science and engineering

1260
00:59:56,870 --> 00:59:56,070
together to solve these problems in the

1261
00:59:58,400 --> 00:59:56,880
future

1262
00:59:59,840 --> 00:59:58,410
Kevin thank you so much for joining us

1263
01:00:01,760 --> 00:59:59,850
for ask an astrobiologist it's been a

1264
01:00:04,700 --> 01:00:01,770
pleasure having you on the show thanks

1265
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:04,710
Graham any time happy to come back and

1266
01:00:08,300 --> 01:00:06,330
answer more questions now that'd be

1267
01:00:10,070 --> 01:00:08,310
great Thank You Evan for joining us and

1268
01:00:51,970 --> 01:00:10,080
numbers stay curious